Ten Cate: GO BYE BYE

[cyberfish]

i think kyrgiakos is amazing in the air but when the ball is on the ground he has tons of trouble.

watch the panionio and oly games again. however he would of been awesome for pao.

luisao is miles ahead of kyrgiakos. miles but he would never come to greece at this age

Reportedly Pao is ready to pay 10 million to Benfica for him :blink: I think if the money is right he would come.

Come to think of it, last summer we spent about 22 million on player's rights. Then Olympiakos was eliminated from the CL groups and we are about to make around 20 million just by being in the groups, so in esensce all these summer transfers are already paid for.

It would not be a bad idea to spend another 20 million this winter to bring a CB and a CF to the team. Loisao and Jan Johannes Vennegoor of Hesselink or Zigc and we'll be set.

But then again that's why PAE is not giving me the checkbook :P

[drakos13]

well if this Luisao guy is good i hope he comes ...

10 million is incredibly expensive..Managment has got to shell out tho

BUT

PAE cannot blame anybody for being in this position, but THEMSELVES. When you ignore the teams needs in favour of BS talk, rumours and names, cheap out on and try to play games with players conceding to your demands, YOU LOSE OUT. We ended the transfer season, UNCOMPLETE without a single solution in the back line, and as a result we have our WORST back line in a decade. They decided to let the problem wait until winter, which is too late.

The results, came quite fast to show how stupid the management was in building this team all wrong... We already lost to AEK, we are on our way out of the CL after 2 matches, and with this defense, every game we play is going to be a Derby, even the small ones and thats going to bleed off points that will cost us big in the end of the year.

They are gonna HAVE to spend big this winter or were gurananteed not to win the title.

[athinaios]

I think we spent too much on players we didn't need, and we (here) were saying that our defense should have been a priority. Anyway. I don't think money is a problem. PAO has spent it on huge contracts for crappy players that contributed little if anything to the club.

The other reality is that every year we've been changing 80% of the players. In any situation (real world business) it'd show that this much of a turnover something's seriously wrong!

[REDmagic]

I think we spent too much on players we didn't need, and we (here) were saying that our defense should have been a priority. Anyway. I don't think money is a problem. PAO has spent it on huge contracts for crappy players that contributed little if anything to the club.

The other reality is that every year we've been changing 80% of the players. In any situation (real world business) it'd show that this much of a turnover something's seriously wrong!

Get rid of Kwsta Adwniou :whistle:

This guy says the biggest m@l@k%es and is a complete clown and @di :LOL: :LOL:

Your club needs a gentleman like Saravakos to take over his role B)

[athinaios]

I wasn't pleased with the numbers of players (too many for certain positions, and we didn't get a sold CB), but I don't know who actually made the decisions.

Saravakos is a gentleman, but who can say if he's the right person for the job. I'm in favor of veterans being involved in the team, but there are diffirent skills involved in managing (and having to make tough calls) and kicking the ball on the pitch.

I don't know what to make Antoniou yet. Does anyone know who (among the new bosses) hired him?

[cyberfish]

It's hard to fault the new management and coach for not being perfect, and for not correcting in four months what was undone over the period of a decade.

All the newcomers mean well, and the management structure was being put in place as they were trying to prepare for a new season. I think Panathinaikos fans are smart and they know that it would take time to climb to the top.

It's evident that they were not savy enough in offseason to manage the slew of player agents that probably bombarded them with names all summer long. Antoniou himself admitted early on in an interview that his weakness was that he did not have "connections" in the transfer market. I think Gabriel might be a good example. They were probably fooled into thinking that he was a RB, when in reality he is not. How can this happen? Easy if you never done this before and you don't have any idea who is a trustworthy agent and who is not.

Overall, as far as I am concerned, they did their best. It's like when the team loses after a hard-fought game. I don't mind it as much because I know when the heart and the effort is there success will follow.

They did try their best to get a CB. They went way out of their way to get Pellerano and for the longest time they were led to believe that he was coming. The guy turned on the team at the very last moment. Then they rolled out the red carpet for Givet and the guy didn't want to come. They shunned Kyriakos (ok by me) and they bought Melissis (good move that will work out pretty soon. He came from a poor team and he has to earn his spot in a champion. It's not easy). I think in the end they decided that instead of rushing to buy just anyone, they would wait until January.

I think it was a mistake because by then we can be out of contention in all fronts. We already lost the three most important games, and we lost them all because of our CB play that put the team behind in the score for no apparent reason. AEK, Inter, Anorthosi were really spotted a goal before 30' without even having to work for it. It's hard to climb out of such hole against good teams. The same happened in Aris but Aris is not as good so we were able to win the game.

They did bring some players I wanted in my team (Cleyton, Ivanschitz, Tzorvas, Gilberto, Christodoulopoulos) and some I did not know before (Roukavina, Moon). I am sure they'll bring some more. Not all of them will be a success. This team won't become dominant overnight.

Anyway, I do like the new philosophy of our game, and I like the idea of creating a core of Greek players (that's why we overpay for some of them). I am willing to wait for the season to end before I ask for people's heads.

The new management has the means and the skill to bring this team to the top. I bet "grandpa" is already worried. I do want to see better football, and it' looks like we are heading the right direction.

Athinaie: I don't know who hired Antoniou, but I would venture a bet that for such an important position there was probably wide support for his hire.

Antoniou is a product of the PAO academies, and he is one of the all-time top AMs for PAO. RedMagic's comments are just not serious. We went the route of the "gentle" aproach only to get pommeled in domestic competitions. Antoniou is no pushover. If he fails it won't be because his own management or other teams pushed him around. Saravakos is serving the team from another post higher than Antoniou in case you did not know.

[Clover22]

Well obviously its much too early to be criticizing the new guys in charge; they just started and they have to be given a chance. Cyber I don't think we lost these 3 crucial games just because of our CB, it was also because of the other choices Cate made in midfield and up front. Which is bizarre because he had a good line up for the pre season friendlies. It looked like he knew what he was doing then he went ahead and changed! The team HAS been steadily improving since Munoz,finally we get some new management and we looked promising pre season, then all of a sudden boom. As a result I nearly went mad, because a KID can do better than that! These are amateurish coaching mistakes. If the guy wakes up, like, TOMORROW, then fine. We shall see what happens. We have a lot of talent on this team, YES, our weakness is in defence so we're not perfect, but its not like we have atrocious defenders either (Nilsson, Goumas, Spyro, Sarriegi all good).

[cyberfish]

I think your criticisms are valid Clover. I agree with much of what you and others have written about player selection, and transfers. I guess I am much more patient knowing that a coaching change would not serve us well right now.

[athinaios]

Since this thread is about TKate...

I think he's made several mistakes, but I, too, want him to have time to shape the team. We have to stop having 25 coaches and 3,000 players every year or so.

It's just that we've been this rollercoaster too many times before. This season started with lots of hopes, and I believe we have a better roster overall than in the recent years.

But, if we lose tomorrow, and (as likely) to leave the CL on a bad note, then things can spiral down in a hurry.

I think the team needs to have a competitive domestic race. We're not ready for Euro yet.

[drakos13]

http://www.contra.gr/Soccer/Hellas/Superle...kos/218123.html

[cyberfish]

Is Bajevic still available? I think Donis will be available soon too. :unsure:

[DUDE]

It's not HTC's fault that he has an inept squad at his disposal.

[GreekLunatic]

I think Antoniou is more to blame. when he asked for a centre back they didnt buy him one, also i wonder which of the 3 will go first Donis Valverde or Ten Cate.

[Akritis_1944]

I think Antoniou is more to blame. when he asked for a centre back they didnt buy him one, also i wonder which of the 3 will go first Donis Valverde or Ten Cate.

Henk Ten Cate is the better manager. Donis has promise, but maybe he is better with a developing squad like Larissa or Xanthi.

Valverde to me is the real unknown here. Sure he guided Athletic Bilbao to an UEFA cup place and Espanyol to a UEFA final, but he has been really uninspiring as Oly's manager. That being said, all managers should be given a shot at proving themselves, so it is still early.

Hen Ten Cate needs to start talking with his fists. I want to see him put his fists through Goumas face. :box:

[NYPAO13]

can you imagine if Bajevic was our coach now getting these results????

everyone would want his head!!!!!

but instead some of us are sucking HTC @ss...

For the 1st time i will go this route.. Bring in Bajevic...Rock Bottom.. 3 straight games as home team 2 ties,& 1 loss vs teams we should of beat in our sleep!!!!!

With Panoinios & osfp next....

But yet we've fired other coaches & replaced them with Skasni after 3 games...{Shoum}

[drakos13]

I gurantee you, with this team, Bajevic, Laundrup, Donis, would be practically the same position. How about we get somebody with a full brain for making transfers and scouting? Why cannot, we take ALL our scouts and show them the door? How many failed signings and wastes of money will it take before somebody other than the coach pays for poor results and useless individual performances?

[Crazy]

Henk Ten Cate talks with Pateras:

http://www.contra.gr/Columns/Paparazzi/218176.html

[Genome]

Henk Ten Cate talks with Pateras:

http://www.contra.gr/Columns/Paparazzi/218176.html

:LOL:

Poor guy :D...

[cyberfish]

At least these defeats bring out some interesting reports :P

Ten Cate spoke to the players today and among other things took responsibility for the defeat. But it's interesting to read the details.

He apologized to Mattos for leaving him all alone to do all the running in midfield, and asked the other players to apologize to Mattos. He did identify that midfielders don't transition to defense the way they should which is a good sign. But realizing it and saying it is half the battle. Now he has to drill the team to overcome this weakness.

Those who have been reading my posts here for the past four or so years know that I don't think it's possible for any lone DM to be effective the way the game has evolved to flat and high defensive lines. Even world class DMs need a second CM close to them. Unfortunately, somehow Panathinaikos fans thing it's a taboo to play with two DMs and boo every time the coach tries to pull his midfield together.

The report: "

[drakos13]

^^^

I disagree, as a former CDM myself.

You CAN definitley play with one. Im sorry but the midfield in the central wasnt under massive pressure with Ergotelis. Players, defenders were OWNED and Mattos cant cover the wings too thats not the CM's job.

I agree the other CM can do, but 2 DMs is not really necesary, and this goes even more so for a team in OAKA vs Ergotelis.

2 CM's, yes. The other midfielder should check back and help, but you do not by anymeans need another "defensive specialist" to support the existing one, only when the approach is very conservative. All midfielders at this level can play defense, so can forwards. It is professional football, and yes they really can do basic things and tasks, they wont be as succesful over the course of 90 minutes but they can help where needed if they come back and cover. Clayton, can definitley check back.

Im all for HTC staying, but how can this be the first game hes taken note of these problems???? :unsure:

Anyways. The only way this can be undone is wins until winter break, including beating Gavros, and if we beat Werder this game will be long forgotten. But as much as I hope this season, nothing really gets better, and realistically, teams like Panionios, OSFP, Werder are better this season.

"

[cyberfish]

You are right Drako (and this is a good conversation). I did not mean to imply "two DMs". I had in mind two central midfielders who's mind is both in defending and moving the ball forward quickly. So "2 CMs" is more accurate. The term "DM" is an anachronism that I use incorrectly, so I apologize.

I disagree that anyone can do this job though. There are players who have a talent in defending and players who have a talent on offense. Having a player like Ivanschitz or Cleyton or Ninis for instance play next to Mattos (for instance) is not the same as having Gilberto, or Tziolis, or Simao.

If you ever watched how easily opponents go by players like Ivan, or Cleyton you will know that it's not a viable option if you want to dispossess opponents quickly so you can keep them in their half.

I honestly think we can score two goals against anyone even if we field two CMs (Mattos+Gilberto, Mattos+Simao, Mattos+Tziolis) and the only think we'll be missing would be the view of opponents running rampant at our backpedaling defenders.

The only one player I would be putting next to Mattos in the middle would be Karagounis, and that would deny his strength near the opponent's box.

On a more general note a common misconception is that football is played with the feet. I think football is played with the brain.

[Clover22]

I also read and heard he was a difficult guy and had problems before. Part of being a coach is knowing how to develop a positive relationship with the players you work with so everyone is on the same page.

[NikosVazelas]

Sooooo HTC.... is he still crap?

Do the players seem to hate him?

STOP READING THE NEWSPAPERS

these players killed themselves for him the past two games....

Kara dedicated his goal to him

[Clover22]

He certainly was crap at the beginning and made atrocious decisions, like the 2 crucial games we lost in the CL. But I think he got a wake up call after the game w/ Ergotelis. Now we look much more stable, which is great, but we obviously have work to do.

[athinaios]

I hope this topic subsides and falls off the screen for a while. I don't think we should be thinking of getting a new coach after 1/3 of the season.

TKaten has done many mistakes, but WHO hasn't? As long as he doesn't try to sell us some kind of stupidity, he's OK by me.

Besides, look at the other teams. They don't have supermen at the helm either. As a team, overall, we have a good potential. We are very inconsistent. Yet, we've shown that 1. we can play great football, and 2. the players seem lot more into it. You've got to travel back many years to see these 2 qualities in our club.