PAOK17

Instead of everyone going in circles, I would like everyone to answer my question. Achilles Heel, I am going to be quoting some of your statements, as I feel they represent the most objective of the opinions (to some it may seem I am using the term loosely) that have been formed as to why PAOK deserved what it got. 1. AchillesHeel sates: "in the game against AEK, Savvides invaded the pitch and pulled his team out....whether he threatened anyone or not, he stopped the game....a stupid, impetuous move that cost you the title." the only thing I will correct you on, is that he attempted to pull the team, as the players didn't actually listen to him. But for argument's sake, let's say he did pull the team off. I agree, if you pull your team off without the permission of the match officials, you are forfeiting the match. Regardless why you pulled the team. Can we agree that is the case? 2. If the answer to 1 is yes, then should Olympiakos have forfeited the match against PAOK a few weeks earlier? Based on what happened, it was Vice President Theodoridis who pulled all of his players off the pitch prior to the referee even knowing what occurred. He even stated this to NOVA Sports as he was doing it "Pira tin omada kai figame". 3. It sounds like if fans throw something onto the pitch, regardless of what it is, and it hits a player/coach/etc of the opposing team, the home team should forfeit the match. This is confirmed by your statement "the game against oly never started because a fan threw an object and hit the coach (regardless of theatrics that can't be allowed even if I think Garcia and oly are chickens#!ts)". Can we all agree, that if a fan of a home team throws an object, regardless if it's a feather or a brick, the match should be forfeited by the home team? If you disagree, please state why, or how you would adjust this rule. 4. We seem ok with punishing bad behaviour commited by PAOK. However, no one seems to have a problem with the fact that we rewarded bad behaviour by Olympiakos and AEK (they both were awarded the maximum points). In Olympiakos' case they were awarded 3 points for faking an injury, and for pulling their team off prematurely. In AEK's case, they were rewarded for verbally abusing the referees and for (apparently) refusing to accept the referee's order to return to the field. I agree PAOK should be punished for its bad behaviour. Is it right to reward Olympiakos and AEK for their bad, though not to the same degree, behaviour? Or should they also just receive 0 points for the match (while PAOK received -3)?

Do we actually have evidence that he was really threatening people? From the telecast, I saw him yelling like a maniac for sure, but his gestures and tone looked no more aggressive than the AEK players surrounding the ref. Based on that, are we then allowed to draw the conclusion that the AEK players threatened the ref? The gun is circumstantial. That is he happened to have a gun on him, while he went on his tirade. Unless he trotted around saying "listen people, I have a gun in my holster and I know how to use it", then what's the basis of him threatening people with it. Also, does he speak fluent enough Greek for people to even understand what he's saying on the pitch? Lastly, the only people to say they feel threatened are those who have the most to gain from Savvidis' loss of composure. So from what I see is Savvidis crossed a huge line, and AEK made sure to milk it for as much as possible. You're right, PAOK may have done the same in a similar situation. But then again, it's very possible that AEK's upper management would have had similar reactions if AEK had gone through a three week stretch like PAOK did as well. AEK's players lost their s%$#! for a goal they thought was offside when they hadn't even seen a replay. Imagine their reaction had a ref flip flopped the decision on them like he did to PAOK. There's another thing to add to your list of problems with Greece. Players losing their s%$#! at every refereeing decision that goes against them.

Don't waste your breath Blackhawk. On one side, he says things like everyone is to blame in Greece, and on the other he repeats the same crap about Ivic. He ignores facts that are different from the situations, from the doctor's report in their own stadium. He also seems to not comprehend the laws of classical mechanics. JVC, let me spell it out for you. Momentum = mass x velocity. Collisions are the transfer of momentum from one object to another. The higher momentum transfer, the harder collision (i.e. harder force). So throwing a mass roughly 5 times heavier, WILL make a difference. But that's beside the point. We PAOK fans acknowledged at the time that Ivic was being soft. But who are we to argue with league doctors. Olympiakos wouldn't allow the league doctor to examine their coach. The injury was severe enough to require a hospital trip, but not severe enough to receive immediate medical attention. What would have happened if it were a heart attack? Are we that paranoid of medical professionals in the stadiums? But like many have said. Norther Greeks have felt unfairly treated by south for years. The south have ignored it as paranoia from the North, and maybe they are right. However, brushing it off, makes the North even more furious at the situation. Maybe the two sides need to have a proper conversations where concerns can be voiced and listened to.

Agreed. That's what I have been saying. Ban Greece, and fix it. The history of hatred is too deep now. Punishing PAOK now will only build the already existing resentment, between north and south.

Also listen to Kone's words right after the game, while still at the stadium. The ref wanted to continue the game, and it was AEK that wanted to either not play, or at least know the score of the game prior to going out. And all of a sudden AEK's officials are saying in the court "No no, that didn't happen". Really??? Is the Greek court system that much of a joke?

JVC, we need to compare apples with apples. For arguments sake let's say the momentum of the beer can was the same as the paper roll (it wasn't because the roll apparently weighs ~50 grams, while even at half full, that beer can is ~250 grams. So at the same throwing speed, at best the roll is 20% the momentum). The difference was that Ivic was actually looked at by the stadium doctor before being taken out by medical staff. Olympiakos refused medical inspection from the stadium doctor and basically snuck out with a private car. That makes the injury seem even more suspicious. If you are injured enough that you need to go to hospital, do you really refuse medical help at the time of the injury? Again, I bring the North American mentality where all head injuries immediately go through concussion protocol at the stadium. I still think it was pathetic that he was escorted in a wheel chair. Did the stadium doctor actually say he wasn't ok to continue? That's where the main difference of the two incidents need to be looked at. What happened with Savvidis was crossing the line. But lost in the gun, which no one saw until minutes after he was off the field, was the fact that PAOK scored a goal. We can debate whether it was offside or onside until we are blue in the face, and we will never have the right answer. The issue is that the ruling on the field was initially "Goal", based on the ref signalling a goal, and the assistant not raising his flag, and even motioning to centre of the pitch. Heck even the keeper who was the one apparently obstructed, didn't even complain. Then AEK players swarm the assistant, and after a few minutes, the ruling on the field is changed. The events that followed are a boil over of the previous three weeks circus. Actually, you can even argue that it was a boil over of the 50 year circus of Greek soccer. This is why we need to actually stop the league and have a proper inquiry to all the things that affect Greek soccer. Greece will win the World Cup before that ever happens.

I'll speak how I watched the game(s) on tv vs what has been reported by the mainstream Greek media. Against Olympiakos, I see the teams marching on the field and lining up to start. All of a sudden, there is reports that Garcia is down, and that something hit him. I am thinking "Oh crap, what did they throw?" Then I see the replay of the paper roll, and then I think to myself "Ok not great, but it's just a paper roll. The coach is milking this, but the game will go on as it's not a real injury." This is based on me having witnessed thousands of streamers being thrown at games in Toronto. Sure, a register roll may be harder than streamer but enough to hospitalize someone? And what annoyed me the most is how no one in the mainstream, Athens based media dared call out Garcia for faking the injury. I expected at least someone to say "Really? He's going to the hospital for that???" In that same game, I saw an Olympiakos executive pull his team off the pitch because of said paper roll. He even stated that to the media. Just because someone spits in your face, doesn't mean you can claim you almost drowned. As for Savvidis, that's the tipping point of tension that had built up. We had the farce with Olympiakos, where somehow we still lost the game 3-0. Then the goal that was waved off in the most ridiculous fashion I have ever seen. So the team president came on to collect his team, just like the Olympiakos vice President did 2 weeks earlier. and because a gun was evident on him, the media took that story and ran with it. And let's be honest, no one knew that gun existed until well after Savvidis left the pitch. So let's not use that as the crutch. AEK, like most Greek teams, knows that if any incident happens, the system will reward you for not playing. So AEK found the opportunity with all of the crap that happened with the goal and Savvidis coming on the pitch and milked it. Just like Olympiakos did with the paper roll. If I am PAOK, next year I am hiring someone to throw paper rolls at my team's bench at every away game. And each time it hits my coach, I say pull the team off, and get the forfeit. And don't tell me that's ridiculous as we now have a precedent.

Edit...off topic

I have watched MLS for the past ten years, and though it was really poor quality to start off with, it has improved vastly. Most, if not all teams, have academies that with proper training facilities. For example, when AC Milan came to Toronto, they had nothing but great words to say about Toronto's practice facilities. Yes, there may be a quirky roster rules, with salary caps, etc. But the league is very healthy financially, and the play is improving. There is parity, but also room to grow. There are several teams that are standing out in terms of scouting. Also, most teams have world class stadiums that draw very good crowds. If the quality of MLS hasn't passed the Greek league yet, it will soon. The teams in MLS are much more ambitious. Toronto FC won it's first championship last year, and this year they are talking about wanting to win the CONCAF Champions League so that they can challenge for the World Club Cup. Olympiakos has been winning the Greek league for two decades and what exactly have they (or anyone else in Greece) done in Europe?

Looks like us commonwealthers think alike. You one-upped me with the Royal Commission ;)

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Yes, the things in Toumba are not acceptable, but they are all connected in the bigger web of issues in Greek soccer in general. You say a "PAOK chairman invaded the pitch carrying a gun and threatened the reff and Dimitriadis." The threats are alleged for one, and second the gun is circumstantial. Again, it was stupid that he carries it. No one is arguing with you on that. But let's not forget that no one even knew about the gun until it was posted by NOVA later. Would you still have the same attitude if there was no gun? If so, then why are you not up in arms for when Theodoridis, and Olympiakos chairman, stormed the pitch and demanded his team leave the pitch? Like I said, I am fine with throwing the book at PAOK, but make sure to thoroughly clean up the rest of Greek soccer too. Savvidis isn't the problem, his behaviour is just a symptom. If we don't fix it from top-bottom, then we will have the same conversation in a few months. Cycle, rinse and repeat.

I agree with your comment 100% regarding Savvidis, being on the pitch. However, saying that this alone is the problem in Greek football is like saying the assassination of Franz Ferdinand caused World War I. It's a lazy argument, and if we treat it as an individual problem, then we will never fix Greek soccer. Punish Savvidis, and punish PAOK - yes, I agree to this. But I also want a proper public inquiry carried out by a foreign third party to investigate WHY these things happen in Greek soccer. You can write an entire thesis about the issues of corruption, and preferential treatment. Yet in typical lazy Greek journalism, all cling to the gun sighting. Yes, it's horrendous, but focussing solely on a weapon that was never drawn distracts from the greater problem. Savvidis was very clear about wanting to take the team off the pitch. He stormed the pitch and acted like a child. It sounds extremely similar to how Theodoridis, Olympiacos' vice president, acted to weeks ago. Except, he picked up his team because a paper roll hit the coach. Why hasn't anyone drawn that comparison? As for the gun, we should ask, why does the owner of a team need to carry one when he already has body guards? Do we honestly think he carries it to shoot down people that disagree with him? If he is a Mafia leader, then he must not be a good one as I am pretty certain they are better at getting others to do their own dirty work. Besides, if he is so corrupt, why publicly threaten the ref in front of literally millions of eyes? Wouldn't he be better off doing that in a more discreet way? Or does he carry the gun for protection? Here's a guy who has forced himself into an already corrupt system and he has ruffled many feathers trying to change the establishment. You don't think he's created new enemies? Heck, a few years ago, Marinakis ordered military style helipcopters to patrol Toumba out of fear that fans may do something to him. And he got his way - as if Greece were a military state! And our issue is that a team owner carries a pistol? Again not condoning publicly walking around with a firearm, but I hope people are better at asking the tough questions than the journalists. There are thousands of problems in Greek society and soccer. Like I said, throw the book at PAOK and Savvidis. They earned it. But if we don't take wider action to investigate the true root cause for all this conflict then there will be other such events in the league, and we will never fix the issues. This is an opportunity to finally make things right. Public Inquiry now!

I think the gun is just ridiculous. I'm not sure what the gun laws are in Greece but as a player or Ref, I wouldn't feel safe if an angry man started charging the field with a gun in his possession. This incident summed up a whole lot of issues in Greek soccer. Incompetent refs who are influenced by out of control pkayers. Angry owners. I think we have reached the tipping point of decades of corruption. The only thing that was missing was fan violence. How is that possible??

I agree in terms of suspending the league. Years from now, this incident will be seen as the Franz Ferdinand moment of Greek soccer. Let's hope it gets fixed!

This is a joke. So why did PAOK win? That goal was debatable as it depends on whether it's believed the player in the offside position interfered. My opinion is he didn't as the keeper was in the position to make the save and made a full attempt. Remove the offside player and he still doesn't make the save. But I can see why one could call it a goal. But then the next events had nothing to do with the game. Below is a link of a similar situation where a goal was given even though an interfering player made a move to the ball (skip to 1:40): First why did the assistant not raise his flag? Then players are ambushing him and the ref. Players from both teams! Then we have Savidis coming on with a gun. I agree, that should never happen, and I question what happened in the locker rooms. The refs were intimidated for certain. The aek players were justified not to come back. I think this season no one should win the championship. The league needs to be dissolved or something.

Right, I was joking about that. And yes, if it was used, this would have been done an over now. It's used in mls. Not perfect. Though not sure if it could be used here anyway. It's only for clear and obvious errors by the ref. You can't call this a clear and obvious error

And if I am aek if be pissed about that. It was a debatable call that could be argued either way. The refs caused this on themselves. The ref awarded a goal first, no flag, then the linesman decides to have a conversation and then it's overruled. Now they need an hour conversation to change that again? Are they using VAR?

What is so messed up here is why does it take an hour to do anything in that country. A foul happens and it's 2 minutes to take. A goal is scored 5 minutes delay. A goal is waved off, an hour. It makes no sense why a decision and action takes so long. Are they taking it to a government committee?

To be honest, it doesn't matter how one chooses to play as long as it's effective to their team. AEK's game plan was perfect and it worked for them. There shouldn't be a problem. It's not AEK's responsibility to play in a way to benefit PAOK

The irony in it all is that the stoppage in play has nothing to do with the fans. I would say this is a step forward for Greek soccer?

Also can someone answer why the assistant didn't raise his flag for offside? Why did he have to talk to the ref before making the call?

When you have back to back home matches end like this, what do you expect? You honestly think a paper roll should end in a default? Followed by an extremely controversial call at the end of this game? And you ask why the owner comes in?

also it looked like he didn't interfere with the play. Not to mention there's that aek player near the corner who looked to be covering, no

I don't see a goal coming. Our players seem to not know how to pass, and the decision making is very poor. That's two random shots from guys outside the box that looked more like clearances than attempts on goal. If you never proved you can take a good shot from outside the box, now's not the time to start.

The issue is not so much with someone throwing a paper roll and hitting a coach. It's that of precedent. If the league wants this to be the standard then i expect the same punishment every time something is thrown. Forget the incidents that have happened in the past. There won't be a single derby played in Greece with that standard. So I challenge the league to enforce this. On the other hand, team punishments only make sense when it's a systemic crowd issue (ie when the violent acts are organized). When one person out of 30 thousand throws a paper roll it's impossible to hold a team accountable to that individuals actions. Again I am basing on what I have seen in Toronto. In 2015 the blue jays played the rangers in the playoffs. After a controversial, yet correct call, blue jays fans threw beer cans on the field. The game continued. A year later, again in the playoffs, a fan threw a beer while an opposing player was trying to make a catch, and nearly hit him. There was a witch hunt to find the fan and he was found (similar to how paok found last night's fan). Again the jays weren't punished by the league.