Bananas

The last thing the EU want is to have Greece stop using the Euro. Of course, this is just my opinion, as no one can look into a crystal ball and know how the future will play out, but I've always thought Greece leaving the EZ (as opposed to the EU) is their biggest fear. For, if Greece did go back to the drachma and it eventually worked out ok, others will surely follow. We can't know if this would happen, but the EU doesn't want to take the risk. When Papandreou proposed a referendum that was the EU's opportunity to have Greece leave the EZ. Were they happy with his decision ? Instead, he went into a meeting and walked out ashen faced (oh to be a fly on the wall) and the referendum was no more. Again, they could "kick" Greece out now ... but it's not that simple. Legally, it's a minefield as well. I believe Tsipras and Varoufakis know the dread the EU have of Greece going to another currency, and have played the game accordingly. Risky. Very risky! But calculated none the less.

Great to see you back tantra. Missed your posts. Now we just need to get pao2gre back.

@ grkjet, the EU aren't really a big fan of democracy, and if unleashing hell in Greece will serve their purpose, they will do so. It is a monstrous organisation. But I have to agree with you, I am afraid the Greek population will go for the devil they know.

Thanks for the updates all. Will be interesting to see how Tzandaris does at Olympiakos, and if he's part of the main squad or loaned out.

Great news! I must say I am surprised, but I'm not complaining. Given what's happening in Greece I thought this could put some potential players off.

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/01/why-we-recommend-a-no-in-the-referendum-in-6-short-bullet-points/#comments Why we recommend a NO in the referendum ? in 6 short bullet points Posted on July 1, 2015 by yanisv 21 Negotiations have stalled because Greece?s creditors (a) refused to reduce our un-payable public debt and (b) insisted that it should be repaid ?parametrically? by the weakest members of our society, their children and their grandchildren The IMF, the United States? government, many other governments around the globe, and most independent economists believe ? along with us ? that the debt must be restructured. The Eurogroup had previously (November 2012) conceded that the debt ought to be restructured but is refusing to commit to a debt restructure Since the announcement of the referendum, official Europe has sent signals that they are ready to discuss debt restructuring. These signals show that official Europe too would vote NO on its own ?final? offer. Greece will stay in the euro. Deposits in Greece?s banks are safe. Creditors have chosen the strategy of blackmail based on bank closures. The current impasse is due to this choice by the creditors and not by the Greek government discontinuing the negotiations or any Greek thoughts of Grexit and devaluation. Greece?s place in the Eurozone and in the European Union is non-negotiable. The future demands a proud Greece within the Eurozone and at the heart of Europe. This future demands that Greeks say a big NO on Sunday, that we stay in the Euro Area, and that, with the power vested upon us by that NO, we renegotiate Greece?s public debt as well as the distribution of burdens between the haves and the have nots.

It's not my fault he can't post without offending people. His style of posting is reminiscent of a posse who used to post frequently on gs.com but were eventually banned from the site ... Shock therapy ... more like troll therapy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But you are right, I maybe took it a bit far calling him a possible Skopian or Turk. I should as you said ... pause, and only post facts that are true. And I can't be certain he's a Skopian or Turk poster who's trolling the site. I do find it difficult to accept his pleasure at the suffering of Greeks. Keep choking 'em! Yeah! And since you're so careful about only posting facts, there must in fact be a war on the ground. More hyperbole and melodrama.

Easy on the hyperbole. Gyros hasn't "attacked" anyone. He stated his opinions, as have I. The guy gets off on the conditions in Greece. As for the Junta, I would vote for them in a heart beat if they had as a policy replacing the Euro with a new currency. Heck, I'd even vote Golden Dawn if that was their policy. That's how badly I feel about Greece's predicament.

- You should have kept reading, you missed the best part ;) - Gyros and I are very different. Take my word for it. - "Greece is a leftist country by Western standards". No s%$#! sherlock. - Were one of your grand parents communists ?

He's waiting for the outcome of the referendum to see if he'll be paid in Euro's or not ;) Seriously, I'd be surprised if any players are signed in the next 10 days or so.

Glykos is fine if you're content with getting 3rd or 4th place in the league. If we want better (and apparently we do), I agree he's not quite there. Good as a backup though, if he's content to play that role.

Akritis, well said. I have added a 3rd option to the vote for those who feel the same way.

You're flailing about all over the place. I have been to Greece but that is besides the point. I do live in a "centrist" country, and again, that is besides the point, but if I don't answer your points, other posters might think you know what you're talking about. As athinaios said in post #413, there is very little difference between the main stream parties in Greece. To me they are the same and had essentially the same policies whether it was PASOK or ND in charge. But when you talk about what is wrong with Greece and how it got that way, you always blame "the left". Always. At least that's the way I perceive your posts. Maybe if you tried being a bit more neutral ...

I agree, I think it's probably 5% on either side that are "hard" core.

C'mon boys and girls, let's have our own referendum. Hopefully a whole heap of new posters with 2 posts to their name don't skew the results.

Bizarre. There is something very very Greek about blaming all the ills of the nation on "the left". Has "the right" never done anything wrong ? Greece was never an advanced first world economy, but it was never a third world economy either. It was always somewhere in between, and this was reflected in its GDP and general standard of living. Not as good as say the US, UK or Germany but not like an Albania, Bulgaira or Yugoslavia either. And it would probably stay that way for the foreseeable future. It takes decades to really lift living standards in any nation. But, the EU has managed to slash Greece's GDP by 25% in less than 7 years. Quite an achievement. Vote yes for more! Don't even get me started on how they've belittled us (of no real relevance in realpolitik) and their stupid immigration rules (highly relevant).

The question is, not what the pension will become now, but what it will be in 10 years from now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the back flip a back flip ? Didn't Tsipras just present the same terms as before ? The sticking point last week was that the EU wanted to increase the VAT and have a decrease on pensions. Just a second ... *boom* ... there was a commie bastard scum at the door. One less now.

Scum, commie, choke. Great to see you get such a kick out of the suffering. And this isn't the first time you've used colorful language like this. You are special. You should ask your therapist for a refund. You remind me of Nurse Ratched, especially since you used the "choke" description. Great scene. Are you even Greek ? I'm beginning to think you're a Skopian or Turk that just comes onto these forums to troll.

To me, a yes vote is a vote for fear of the unknown ... which is fair enough. It is scary. It is also a vote for the preservation of existing asset values and debt values. If Greece introduces a new currency, effectively anyone that has assets in Greece will see their value probably halved, so this is definitely a big hit. But the biggest thing about a yes vote, is that it's effectively a vote to condemn the youth of Greece to high unemployment indefinitely. This is the worst aspect of the austerity, and one the EU has shown they are not too bothered about. The vote from my perspective is, do I worry about my pocket now, or worry about what sort of a country my children will inherit. A bit melodramatic I know, but that's what this is about. What will give Greece the better outcome in the long run.

And another http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html?_r=0 from Paul Krugman. Some snippets. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It has been obvious for some time that the creation of the euro was a terrible mistake. Europe never had the preconditions for a successful single currency ? above all, the kind of fiscal and banking union that, for example, ensures that when a housing bubble in Florida bursts, Washington automatically protects seniors against any threat to their medical care or their bank deposits. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greece should vote ?no,? and the Greek government should be ready, if necessary, to leave the euro. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And this collapse, in turn, had a lot to do with the euro, which trapped Greece in an economic straitjacket. Cases of successful austerity, in which countries rein in deficits without bringing on a depression, typically involve large currency devaluations that make their exports more competitive. This is what happened, for example, in Canada in the 1990s, and to an important extent it?s what happened in Iceland more recently. But Greece, without its own currency, didn?t have that option. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is, and presumably was intended to be, an offer Alexis Tsipras, the Greek prime minister, can?t accept, because it would destroy his political reason for being. The purpose must therefore be to drive him from office, which will probably happen if Greek voters fear confrontation with the troika enough to vote yes next week. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So it?s time to put an end to this unthinkability. Otherwise Greece will face endless austerity, and a depression with no hint of an end.

Good article http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/29/joseph-stiglitz-how-i-would-vote-in-the-greek-referendum from Joseph Stiglitz. Some snippets. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course, the economics behind the programme that the ?troika? (the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund) foisted on Greece five years ago has been abysmal, resulting in a 25% decline in the country?s GDP. I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences: Greece?s rate of youth unemployment, for example, now exceeds 60%. It is startling that the troika has refused to accept responsibility for any of this or admit how bad its forecasts and models have been. But what is even more surprising is that Europe?s leaders have not even learned. The troika is still demanding that Greece achieve a primary budget surplus (excluding interest payments) of 3.5% of GDP by 2018. Economists around the world have condemned that target as punitive, because aiming for it will inevitably result in a deeper downturn. Indeed, even if Greece?s debt is restructured beyond anything imaginable, the country will remain in depression if voters there commit to the troika?s target in the snap referendum to be held this weekend. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors ? including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries? banking systems. The IMF and the other ?official? creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as-usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That concern for popular legitimacy is incompatible with the politics of the eurozone, which was never a very democratic project. Most of its members? governments did not seek their people?s approval to turn over their monetary sovereignty to the ECB. When Sweden?s did, Swedes said no. They understood that unemployment would rise if the country?s monetary policy were set by a central bank that focused single-mindedly on inflation (and also that there would be insufficient attention to financial stability). The economy would suffer, because the economic model underlying the eurozone was predicated on power relationships that disadvantaged workers. It is hard to advise Greeks how to vote on 5 July. Neither alternative ? approval or rejection of the troika?s terms ? will be easy, and both carry huge risks. A yes vote would mean depression almost without end. Perhaps a depleted country ? one that has sold off all of its assets, and whose bright young people have emigrated ? might finally get debt forgiveness; perhaps, having shrivelled into a middle-income economy, Greece might finally be able to get assistance from the World Bank. All of this might happen in the next decade, or perhaps in the decade after that. By contrast, a no vote would at least open the possibility that Greece, with its strong democratic tradition, might grasp its destiny in its own hands. Greeks might gain the opportunity to shape a future that, though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present.

No one knows for certain what the ramifications will be of choosing option A over option B. Economists can't predict more than 12 months ahead, if that, and if you get 10 economists in a room, you'll probably get 11 opinions.However, what I do know for certain is the following :- - having control of your own currency and having the ability to set your own interest rates can only be a good thing. - most economists outside the EU think Greece is better off in the long run because of this. - most economists outside the EU think the EU is terribly inflexible, bordering on incompetent. - most economists outside the EU find the idea of Greece paying the debts farcicle. - if Greece stops using the Euro the next 5 years will be very bad. - if Greece has a a devalued currency, our exports will grow and imports decrease. - if Greece stops using the Euro the EU is s%$#! scared (and I mean terrified) that if they manage to stabilise their economy, others could follow one day. This is key and is why Germany doesn't want a Grexit. - I hate trying to type on an ipad mini with its brain dead auto correction. The key is having control of your currency. Without that, you have nothing.

Dutch Eagle, I just don't agree that the people are not capable of deciding. We're not all that stupid are we ? Or only the Greeks in the diaspora are capable ? Or not even them ? The people deserve to have a say. This isn't a normal or typical situation they are in. If the people are not fit to have a say in a referendum, then why bother even having normal elections ? Just hand over all decision making to an bureaucracy that's never elected. Red Sheriff, KKE only gets around 5% of the vote, give or take, so even though there are a lot of left leaning voters in Greece, it's a minority that still have hard communist beliefs. Having said that I don't think there is a single poster in this forum that doesn't agree that Greece is in a mess. None of us agree with 10 year degrees, or the crazy unions, or the retirements at 47 and all the other guff that has collectively ruined Greece. What everyone disagrees on is the best way forward. Basically, with the Euro or with a new currency. That is the real question. And, I don't think sticking with the Euro is the best way forward in the long run. The EU is just too inflexible and was never designed with any mechanisms to help in a situation such as this. Right now, they EU is quite content with austerity and 25% unemployment for the next 20+ years, whereas the Greek people are not.

Agree, 1 million is a lot of money, at least for a loan player. According to sport24.gr, PAOK wants to split the payment up depending on games played. $200K per 7 games played which isn't too bad. End of the day, the season before last (2013-2014) he was the top goal scorer in the Eredivisie with 29 goals, so if he could even recapture half of that form, I'd be happy. As to signing him permanently, that's a long way down the road and I'm sure Real Sociedad would want to regain a good portion of the $7.5M they paid.